"Wrestling for Your Life's Quest" w/ Patrick Hickey Jr (BenjaCon 2022) - Mr Benja's ADD Experience #47

Patrick Hickey Jr is the author of The Minds Behind The Games books, journalist, comic book editor, a VO actor, and social media beast. He returns to talk with us about the new game WrestleQuest, working with passion, and getting people to hear about what you're doing.

[00:00:00] Benja: What's up. What's up, we're back. We're doing this again. BenjaCon 2022 great discussions with great people at a great time of year. This is when I reminisce on all the ComicCon discussions I used to have back in the day. And I decided, you know what? Let's keep on having these discussions. I'm gonna bring it back and do it live on Instagram.

It's been so many years if you weren't here for the Wednesday session where we talked with the guys from show versus business, me Theo, Pete, Jeff, that was comedy. That was great, but I'm still bringing you the heat. So I'm coming in and we're gonna have a discussion with Patrick Kiki Jr. Of mines behind the games and the wrestle quest fame.

As of recently spoken to him before we've worked together, we're gonna do some great things here. I'm gonna pull him on and as always check out the rest of the week and the rest of the things we have going on, cuz we're going to make it happen. Aren't we missed Patrick Kiki, Jr. Yes

[00:00:56] Patrick: we are. How you doing?

[00:00:58] Benja: Doing good. Doing good. You know what, the thing I like about the second or third or fourth, whatever discussion is that you can just kind of jump into it and it, it rolls so much easier. You're like, okay, this is how they talk.

[00:01:11] Patrick: Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah, man, I've been looking forward to this, like all day, it's been a long day, but I was just talking to Tony Barnes a little while ago and I was like, bro, you set the bar super high.

So I'm, I'm excited to talk to you today.

[00:01:24] Benja: yeah, that was a, that was a good discussion. He had, he had absolutely that guy's got so many gyms, man. It's just, he he's the one guy at the bar at E three that we would all kind of sit around mm-hmm and just whatever random game stories. Cuz there were a lot of, if you haven't been like really digging for video game, like dirt at E three or at packs or whatever convention, there's always hilarity.

It's just a gold mine.

[00:01:55] Patrick: And to Tony's just like, he, the way he drops it is just like, yeah, it was no big deal, but boom, boom, boom. And you're like, okay. Like his Tom doesn't change. So he could tell you like the world ended and it would stay exactly the same way, which makes like the impact that much stronger when he says it.

So he's one of the most humbly charismatic people I've ever met in my entire life. Like, doesn't think he's charismatic at all. And he's over the moon off the charts charismatic.

[00:02:23] Benja: Yeah, totally man. Totally. So Patrick Hickey Jr. Good to have you back on. Yeah. As I said in the little mini intro, Russell quest fame, voiceover, we've got review fix editor in chief.

We've got the minds behind the games, author and series creator. We're up to eight books, seven books

[00:02:45] Patrick: now. Eight, seven books. Yeah. Six are five are out. The six is coming out. The mines buying PlayStation games is coming out like in October, November, and then the seventh is already done and submitted to the publisher of the mines buying PlayStation two games.

So, so far it's seven books in the

[00:03:00] Benja: series. Okay. Seven books in the series, knocking them out, knocking 'em out crazy. And and editor in chief of legacy comics

[00:03:08] Patrick: and owner of legacy comics. Yeah. And owner.

[00:03:10] Benja: Okay. Mm-hmm before we get into all that, because mm-hmm, , that's some juicy awesomeness. Mm-hmm how did I look up and cuz remember what I was joking when I kind of said this.

So like yeah, you post a lot and I kind of joked about it because it's not a problem. The, the, the algorithms pretty much feed you what you can take, which is awesome. Mm-hmm but when I looked back, I was just going to your profile page and I was like, okay, let make sure there's nothing I missed on this profile page.

how do you have 59,000 posts? Just that's impressive.

[00:03:47] Patrick: It's just, it's just what I do. I've gotten in several arguments with my wife over the past, like six or seven years. What are you doing? What are you doing? And I'm like, I'm posting. And the thing is, it's just like, I, I probably spend about 20 minutes, like at the end of every day, like picking out like the posts that I want post for the next day.

Like in terms of like, I always pick like a superhero that I wanna feature. I always pick like anywhere from like seven to 10 game covers that I'm like, Ooh, this is fun. Like dah, dah, dah, dah, or I'll make a couple of MP four S for reels and things like that. But it just like and I try and hit like four or five different sets of hashtags, like first thing in the morning.

So when people. You know, turn on their phones. They get like a wrestling post from me, a comic book post from me, a video game post from me, you know, mm-hmm so it's just like I don't have a social media manager, like somebody the other day I did a con and she was just like, oh, I'll send everything to your assistant so she could post it.

And I almost belly laughed. I was like, yeah. Now home girl. That's all me, you know? So it's just like and I love it. I love Instagram. Facebook is a lot of fun, but I just love Instagram. Yeah, it's just, it's all me, people are like, do you have automated posts? This and that blah. I'm like, Nope, that's all me.


[00:04:54] Benja: yeah. Now I'm, I'm not posting that much, but I understand when you get into a flow. Oh yeah. It's like idea post and they make it really simple. Once you super simple, once you've gotten the thought out of the way and it's like, oh yeah, this is something I do. Boom, picture of the game, picture of the kids picture of, you know, whatever convention I met.

It's once you get into that flow, it becomes like a an extension of your thoughts actually.

[00:05:19] Patrick: Oh yeah. And I used to post a lot more too. Like before I started legacy, I was posting like anywhere from like 50 to 60 posts on Instagram a day. And now I do like 25 mm-hmm and people are still like, you post a lot.

I'm like, you have no idea, you know? Cause I had to stop myself sometimes for me, like, eh, I don't need to post that. You know, I might as well. Yeah. I might as well, you know, so it's, it's just a part of me, you know? So it's just like, I tell people all the time, I'm one of those people you follow and then then you mute and then if you think of me, then you go to my page and see what I'm up to.

Yeah. But if you don't mute me, then you're gonna get a lot of me. So you either take all of me or you take none of me it's like one or the other, you know? Yeah.

[00:06:00] Benja: And as I, as I said, though, I think the Gary V mentioned this. I don't know if you know who he is.

[00:06:04] Patrick: Yeah. Oh yeah. He loves macho, man. We we've talked about him.


[00:06:08] Benja: Does he love, yes, he does love macho, man. He has the wrestling superstars in his office. I remember that now. The LJN character who, who made

[00:06:16] Patrick: that? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. You got

[00:06:19] Benja: it. All right. I'm still in there. Hell yeah. But yeah, he mentioned that and he was like, yeah, the algorithms have kind of changed.

So even if you're posting a lot, it doesn't really matter. Cuz it'll adjust, adjust up or down depending on what you're into and if you're really engaged or not, et cetera, et cetera. So yeah. Props to you, man. That is great. 56,000 post up to 6,000 followers and you're only following 665. You need to follow one more so you can get 60.

[00:06:44] Patrick: Well, I, I was, somebody dropped me. I'm usually at 6 66 and then if I meet somebody cool, I like drop off somebody that's like not interacting with me. So so yeah, it just, it worked out that way. One day I was at like 6 68 and I'm like, Ooh, I'm really close to 6 66. I'm like, let me find two people that aren't following me and I cut them and then I'm just like, Ooh, that's pretty cool.

So yeah. Yeah. So yeah. So the biggest thing here

[00:07:08] Benja: So before I, before I jump on you have, how, what, what accounts do do we, are we talking about here? Legacy comics, mines behind the games. Patrick Kiki Jr. Review fix has its own does review fix has its

[00:07:20] Patrick: own account on, well, no, no, just on Facebook, but yeah, it's just pretty much like, it's like an extension of me.

So, you know, like the Twitter is review, fixed pat, so it gets, I post all of like the review fix links and my own stuff. So mm-hmm so, yeah, so yeah, just legacy, legacy of the mines behind the games and, and me.

[00:07:38] Benja: Yeah. I don't think I asked you when did review fix start.

[00:07:41] Patrick: Oh, wow. I wanna say 2010, 2009. Okay. So yeah.

Yeah. It's, it's been 24,000 articles on the site, so it's been around for a long time, so, okay. And is

[00:07:52] Benja: primarily concerned with

[00:07:53] Patrick: what comic books? Video games, music pro wrestling, you know, review reviews, mostly or reviews. Yeah. Yeah. Mostly reviews. But lots of interviews, like I've interviewed Phillip Seymour Hoffman for review, fix chatting to aid him, you know, some, yeah, I've done some pretty wacky stuff for them over the years, too.

So, all right.

[00:08:12] Benja: Now I'm loving, I'm loving your angle on the social media game. As you can, as you can tell, I've been getting back into the flow of, let me start putting, been killing it, the clips, the little reels videos and all

[00:08:23] Patrick: this, and they're great off.

[00:08:25] Benja: Yeah. Mm-hmm so what's funny. What's funny about these is like a lot of people are really thinking about likes and how many shares and they're looking at the, the metrics, the immediate metrics.

Yeah. But I'm talking to people and they're spitting back at me stuff that I said in the real or put in an interview and I'm like, did I talk to him about branding? What is this coming from? Mm-hmm it's it's

[00:08:54] Patrick: getting, it means something. it's like, I remember one time I was in the elevator at 30 rock. It was like right after Dallas Cowboys football game.

And I had done like a recap of the game and I said something along the lines of like Tony Romo had like the most passing yards, like, you know, whoa. Like I, I threw out some super obscure effect. So now Tony Dungy is in the elevator with me and I'm just like, oh shit, Tony dunes in the elevator with me.

And he went out and spit out that same exact fact. So I turned around and I was like, did you just read the article that was published on NBC? And he's like, yeah. I'm like, I'm like, and he goes, that was great. So it's just like, that happens. That's how, you know, you're doing, you know, a great job. And those are things that like the average person won't catch on.

And the fact that you do is super important, you know? Hell. Yeah. You gotta look for those wins because that shows you and that's something, some, the average person will go, oh, it only has five likes. Oh, it only has, you know, 700 views or whatever. But then when you get to like the right people, cause like 700, right.

People is so much better than 7,000 people that like have nothing to add to the conversation, you know? Yeah,

[00:09:58] Benja: exactly. I think I was telling I was telling a friend of mine she's she works in, in games and media and we were talking and she's like, well, yeah, I don't know what to do when I, when I don't get the, the, the feedback.

And I'm like, so part of the feedback is invisible. It's kind of like how people treat you, you know what I mean? Absolutely. Like, yeah. And I, I had to, I had to figure this out as an artist where I'm doing stuff, I'm putting stuff out there. So people have a different perception of me and people have a different perception of my products, but I can't really tell, I just know that.

I'm putting it out there in a good way. And I have to just believe in the process of people seeing it or whatever, you know what I'm

[00:10:45] Patrick: saying? I mean, yeah, absolutely. I mean, sometimes you just have to trust yourself, you know, it's like, again, I was talking to Tony Barnes before and I, I, me and him and I were talking and we're just like, we're both doing excellent work and we know we're doing excellent work.

So it's just like, sometimes there's a lot of people out there I've met plenty of them along the way that are like, I'm doing really great work well. And it's like, are you sure? You know? So just like when people try and convince themselves and they say it a thousand times, and then people that like, don't really have to say it and they know it, it's only a matter of time until it gets to the right people.

And as long as you continue to push it, that's why there's 56,000 posts on my Instagram. That's why I post on LinkedIn and stuff because it just. It's a matter of getting to the right people being consistently consistent, having solid output, finishing your projects and you know, like you're, you're absolutely right.

Does your,

[00:11:40] Benja: does your output or whatever you does, whatever you create as you put it out there, does it

[00:11:44] Patrick: ever scare you? Oh yeah, like, absolutely. It's like it's so funny. The one shot that I just released C Rita for legacy comics. Mm-hmm the comical company that I was working at before I started legacy lesser known comics mm-hmm, a name quite, quite fitting for them.

They were super, super concerned about me writing an African African American woman character.

[00:12:07] Benja: I was curious about that. I was like, oh, that, that's why I think why, why I asked like, oh, this yours.

[00:12:12] Patrick: Yeah. And. So she's, she's basically like, and I don't even wanna call her the sidekick to like the main character.

Like condre like my condre series. She's like so much more than the sidekick. Like, she's, she's a pivotal, pivotal part in, in the story. And I remember my, my boss was like, you know, you just have to be careful, like, you know, and this is before he had literally like, understood like what I was writing and things like that.

And I was just like, I I'm from I'm from Brooklyn. Like I've grown up with people of all different shapes and sizes. I'm like, I know 20 CITAs, you know? Yeah. Like I know women like this that don't take no shit from anybody that are like the mayor of the block, you know, that, that they're family means everything to them, you know?

And I was like, I'm not, I'm not worried about it. You know, he was, oh, well, you just have to be careful. And then when I left there when I left lesser known, I decided to do the one shot of her story. And I had people like at, at legacy That are no longer with legacy, but we're like, oh, well, why is she black?

And I'm like, well, why, why can't she be mm-hmm you know, like what, what does it matter? Like the, the color of her skin? Like she, yeah, this is like, when I, when I was envisioning this character, this is like what I saw, you know, it's like, yeah. You know, so it's just like, when it was first, like we, we released it like two weeks ago, it's been finished for like three months, but we were waiting like for the summer to release it with something else.

But I was scared that like, there was gonna be some people that were like, well, you know, you're like this token blonde hair, blue eyed guy, like, yeah. Why would you, you know, and mys thing, is it just like, like I said, like I'm from Brooklyn, you know? And whenever I look at somebody, I never say like, oh, they're black, they're white.

It's more like, who is this person? How can we help each other? How can we synergize? How can we make some great shit together? And like I said, you know, it just, when I envisioned the character, that's why I saw so, yeah. So when it was originally released two weeks ago, I was nervous. I was scared that maybe especially on Twitter, I was somebody on Twitter was gonna say something, but it's been, it's been great so far.

The reception's been awesome, but yeah, I was scared a little bit.

[00:14:09] Benja: Yeah. I think the reason I asked about fear is I think you should be a little afraid of something you put out there. Not because not because you're ashamed of it. Not because you don't think it's quality, but it's kind of like you're, you're doing you're, you've got a good painting going on and you're like, all right, now I'm coming in with the white paint and I'm gonna go over this.

If this doesn't look right. When I put it down, I don't know what I'm gonna do. And you know, it's like, it goes down and you're like, okay, that just changed everything. And you're not like mad at it or anything like that, but it's just that, that little trepidation. So I'm glad you went ahead and put it out there.

[00:14:51] Patrick: Definitely. Oh yeah. I mean, it was the same thing with the minds behind the games books. When the first one came out, I had so many people that were like, well, does it really matter? And I'm like, what does it really matter? Like the people that made the games, like why can't we just play the games and enjoy the games for what they are?

And I'm just like, oh, like he doesn't get it or she doesn't get it, you know? And that's like, yeah, that's a big, like, it's scary. Like what a big cross section of gamers really? Like, don't get it. You know? So just like, I feel like the people that have bought my books really get it, and they're so much fun to speak to at conventions and things like that.

But yeah, that's, that's scary sometimes like being in a game stop and trying to explain to a little kid that he likes this game. He likes days gone by, because it was made by the same team that like had a hand in siphon filter. Yeah. And when they go siphon filter, what's that blah, blah, blah. And then when you try and explain that they like, they don't get it.

Yeah. They don't care. They just wanna play the game. And to me, that's just like, oh, it's such a lost opportunity to connect, you know? So yeah. There's always that fear that people aren't gonna get, like what you're trying to go for. So I think everything I've released, I've had that feeling at some point or another,

[00:15:55] Benja: and I think that's good.

That's a total. You know, art production releasing kind of reaction. And I think it's sure, I think it's, I think it's good. A lot of people are just like, eh, just putting this out. And when they do that, where they're just putting something out, I don't think they've got enough heart behind it. Absolutely.

Cause you putting, you're putting your heart out

[00:16:13] Patrick: there too. Absolutely. Like you know, we had some, some things going on with with legacy, like two weeks ago. And like one of the, one of the things was, you know, one of, one of our writers, like an artist, it was just like, he, he released something and it was like, it, that, that exact thing that you just said, it was just like, you released this, but you're not like, you're, it's got no soul.

My brother, you know, it's just like, man, you that extra and he didn't have it. And it was just like, yeah, can't we can't do that ever again. That could never happen ever again. And it won't happen ever again, you know? So it's just like, yeah, you've gotta. , you've gotta leave a little piece of yourself in like everything that you create.

If you don't, then what's the point, you know, then you're just throwing stuff out there and hoping that it sticks. And that's, that's not, definitely not my style. That's not, that's not what I'm trying to do.

[00:17:02] Benja: I think with I think definitely with comics and such a, I don't wanna say smaller, but a more a less collaborative, medium, sure.

Than something like a video game. Sure. Like when I was doing a video game, I would still get kind of one curious about, okay, there's elements in the game that I know people are gonna have a problem with. And there are elements in the game that I know people are gonna, like, I'm not sure about X, Y, or Z or whatever, but it's a whole crew of people and they intentionally try to obfuscate who did.

So when you're talking about some of the craziness and red dead redemption, it's kind of like, ah, well, you know, we were all just, ah, you know, mm-hmm yeah. And if something goes, if something goes well, you know, it's like, well, we were all part of it and we kind of all take the glory, but with the comic book that hits a lot harder because it's like, no, no, no, that guy wrote that because I look on the front page or the inner page and it says writer Patrick Hickey

[00:18:00] Patrick: Jr.

Absolutely. Like I would, I would say that like writing a comic and like being in charge of a comic book company is like playing golf. It's like, if you screw up, it's you, you could blame the wind. You could blame your club, you could blame your caddy But at the end of the day, if there's a typo or if something doesn't hit hard or if, you know, if something's messed up, it's on you, you know?

So just like you have to be like just super meticulous and you have to be a perfectionist. And the thing is too, especially the people that you work with They have to have a thick skin. And if they don't or if they deflect, that's dangerous, you know, if you have somebody that's just like, oh, well this is okay.

And then you go, it's not fix it. And they go, well, I think it's okay then, then you're gonna have issues, you know? So it's hard. It's super hard. Yeah. I

[00:18:49] Benja: think Kevin Smith was speaking on that at one point about you've got such a and he, he was, he was saying that in different relationships, like one person may be the strong hand in, in the relationship.

You've got a writer and an artist pretty much. And he was saying that in this one, you know, he was the writer and he had the strong hand in that particular comic mm-hmm . But, but he was like, man, this is such a great artist. I just want to write in such a way where I give them room without seeming like I'm being lazy.

Mm-hmm , you know, so he was like well, I do this and this. And then. Some kind of fight happens. Maybe you could help me out with that. And the artist, luckily they got along and the artist was like, oh yeah, we can do X, Y, and Z and da, da, da send him some sketches. And it worked out. But geez, man, I can't imagine.

I, I really can't imagine like such a small folk actually I can, cause I I've worked on a, the smallest game I've worked on was phone fighters. And that was two artists. Three, three, if you count the guy who did the graphics for the book and the cover, but I don't really count that. Mm-hmm but two game artists, one designer and one programmer.

So it was like four people. Yeah man. And five, we had an offsite guy, so I take that back, but yeah, five people.

[00:20:18] Patrick: That's awesome. I mean, think about it too. Just like I think I, I wrote something on like Facebook the other day. There's like nothing scarier than being in, in control of your own destiny, you know?

And then at the same time too, there's like nothing more thrilling than being in control of your own destiny. So that's like the way like comic book creation, like small indie game development is too like yeah, if you create something that's special and it's just you and a couple of other people, then you can own that, you know?

Yeah. If you screw up then, you know my biggest problem is that, like, I always expect people to work as hard as I do. It's always been like my, my biggest flaw. And like, when I see someone like not doing it, I I'm gonna be like the Scott hole in the situation. I'm gonna be the bad guy and I'm gonna just be like, listen, You need to step up or you, you, you needs to go, you know, and that's a really good way of not having many friends, but it's also a good way of like, finding out, like, who's got it.

Cause so many people could say, yeah go big or go home. And then it's just like, well, you didn't go big. So now you know where to go, you know? So it's just like, it's, it's hard sometimes when you're in a small environment like that. Yeah.

[00:21:26] Benja: You know? No, it definitely is. I, I think I tend to have that problem too, where I'm so into the, the, the dev and the design, like I was going to, programer saying, Hey, listen, I know you're working on X, Y, and Z, but we've got this demo and we need you to work on this first because if this comes out, this is gonna give us more.

And the, the programmers looking at me like, do you see this schedule on the wall? We've got, I'm like, yeah, I know buddy, but you're gonna do this. No, one's gonna care. We do this. They care that gives us more money and more time. And dude, when I told, I told you, when we were doing table tennis, It was it wasn't always thought of as the best project at rockstar games.

Mm-hmm , you know, just in terms of who we were working with and individual people. Yeah. The company, the company backed it, but like different individuals were thinking, I wanna get off this as fast as possible, go work on midnight club. I want to finish this rendering engine so I can work on whatever, but I'm not worried about the game itself.

So I had to be the asshole. Right. Yeah. And I think I, I, I learned I'm still not great at it. I think I learned to kind of really dig for people's strengths and then kind of throw them in that one direction. Yep. Yep. Like the, like the guy with the rendering engine, what I told him was he's like, all right, well, you wanna work on the rendering and everything and such and such.

So I left his desk, then I go talk to the producer and some other artists like. Hey, listen, can we do one of the arenas where we have like swinging lights and it's a little dusty in there and all the stuff that would really tax the rendering engine. And they're like, yeah, sure. We can start on that right away.

I'm going over talking to the concept. I'm going over talking to the concept artist like, Hey, do we still have that, that sweat technology where, you know, the guy's skin starts to glisten a little after, you know, so many rounds and they're like, yeah, we're still doing that. All right. Hey, can you talk to such and such artists?

Cuz I, and you know, like a week later, all of a sudden the rendering guy is under pressure now cuz he's like, holy crap, man. I got a lot of stuff to do. We're dealing with all these lights and the swing and the dust and the sweat. And, but he's like in his zone because he gets to really flex with his engine.

[00:23:39] Patrick: Absolutely. So I tell my students all the time, it's just like, I love when they say that they're tired and I'm like being tired is good. And it's just like, when someone it's like over the past, I would say like 20 years since I'm like 18 and really like trying to do stuff. When someone says two things to me, I usually run when it's like they say I don't have the time right now.

I'm gone. And then the other thing is I'm working as hard as I can. I usually run because I feel like you never know how hard you can work, you know, you know, there's always time just means you've gotta, you've gotta give up something. You've gotta sacrifice, you know, especially with art, you know, mm-hmm, so it's hard.

It's hard, but yeah, man, you you're like you're like Paul Haman, you know, like, you're you look at people and you're like, oh, this person could do that. This person could do that. And like, I feel like I'm like the same way, because like I have to get artists and writers to work together and I have to get this person to do this and I have to get this person to do that.

And it's just like, it's just getting people to like find their own. their own best self, you know? And it's hard. Mm-hmm , you know, and especially, I mean, I mean, I'm sure you remember, like when you first started out in video games, the money is not great, you know, and like, you've gotta get people to really believe and you've gotta keep the hype train going, but like not bullshit people.

And it's hard. It's hard. But like, yeah, whenever I hear like excuses like that, those, those are like, usually like my telltale signs that somebody like talks more than they do. And those people are those, those people are really dangerous. Those people can sync dreams, they can sync companies. So I try and like find them out as soon as I can and, and work with people that are gonna try and push as hard as they possibly can.


[00:25:24] Benja: And, you know and, and I won't get into like, you know, Rockstar's habits or anything like that. Mm-hmm but they intentionally stock the company with passionate people. Mm-hmm so when you're on your passion, I don't think that. It's that hard. The hard part is actually just aligning those passions.

Like once we got that level really figured out like, Hey, this is the level we're gonna show. It's going to have the, the lights with the dust and all that. Like I was saying before, then all of a sudden, everybody else's passion starts to fire up and they want to join in like, like, Hey, wait a minute.

You're doing this. Hey, I want to make a New Jersey, like New Jersey. Yeah. I I've had these new jerseys. I wanna put 'em in there too. So when we show the other guys from New York or whatever, we're gonna we're gonna show 'em off the new jerseys too. And it's like, cool. Get on board. Oh yeah. Love it every time.

So let me ask you about you know, speaking of sports and all that wrestle quest, how did this thing come about? So

[00:26:25] Patrick: crazy. It's like the past, I would say like the past 16 months, 16 to 18 months, I've been on the team. And I've really only been able to speak about it for probably like the last, like five or six.

So what happened was I remember telling you the last time was on about the Padre and how I got into voice acting and things like that. And then what happened was as a journalist and as an author, I inter I interact with game developers all the time, you know? And I've been super cool with the mega cat people for quite some time.

And just one day the the CEO of mega cat James Degan awesome guy is just like, oh, so you're doing voiceover now. I'm like, yeah, I've been doing voiceover for a little while now. And he is just like, oh, you've been doing this. Do you wanna try and do some sound effects for some of the unlicensed characters and that blah, blah, blah.

I'm like, yeah, sure. So I did that. And then that came out well, and then it was just like, oh, do you wanna do the voices of some of the licensed characters? And I'm like, sure. And then it's just like, So you wanna do the ring announcer and then, oh, the main character is like, you know, the proj of macho, man, can you do a mock man?

Like, absolutely. And then it just, all of a sudden I'm playing the voices of like over a hundred characters. And it's, it's just been, it's been totally, totally insane, you know? PS east. Yeah. We just, we just did star cast last week in Tennessee. So I got to go like the Rick flair roast and stuff like that.

And it's been insane. Like this game has just been such an important like part of my life, the past like year I totally like I've worked on, I worked on BPM boy with Tony Barnes that just got released on the VCs. And I love working with Tony that that's been like a dream for me, cuz like, I feel like we're like of the same mindset he works.

He works just as hard as I do. Like, you know, he's this incredibly refined mind, you know, I could just sit and listen to him, speak like forever. And then I'm doing world championship boxing manager too for mega Kat and stuff. But like this game. Just watching it, like grow has been amazing. And I've always been a big fan of 16 bit turn based RPGs.

Like mm-hmm, , I mean, I'm sure you are too. It's like the age we grew up in, you know like chrono trigger, earthbound, super Mario RPG and stuff. So it's just like, this game takes like the heart of all of those games. And then just throws in this love affair with eighties and nineties wrestling, which is like a huge part of my life as well.

So to be able to be the voice of this game, super, super crazy. And then just being at the booth and showing it to people and walking them through. Yeah. And, and listening to myself, like talk as multiple characters. It's so it's kind of surreal. Huh? It's surreal. And like, I almost like want to cry sometimes.

Like I, I was playing it with Colton gun from a w during the, like, during when we were in Tennessee and I'm just like, I'm sitting here with an a w star showing him the game that I worked on. It's wild. And your rolling with Jeff,

[00:29:14] Benja: Jared.

[00:29:15] Patrick: Yeah. And Jeff Jart is amazing. How is he connected? He's executive producer of the game.

Okay. Yeah. And he he loves video games. Like he loves the video game industry. He's hungry to learn more and stuff like that. And he just sees the project as something that's like really unique and, and he wanted to be a part of it. And I mean he's been a great ambassador. Like he spoke at the PAX east panel with us and I mean, he was on the ground floor with like mark Temel for the T game and that sold over a million copies, you know?

And like, so, I mean, he was in WCW versus the world on PS one. So he's got like a 20. Five year, video, game history himself, you know, so it's been a lot of fun to like be around these guys and like Jeff jar jar has been he's hilarious. So like at PAX east he was like putting me over, like he was telling people like, oh, this is the voice actor.

He does a great mantra, man. He does a great Hawk from Legion to doom, blah, blah, blah. And then he started messing around with people and was like he's actually macho, me and Randy Savage's son. And I'm like, oh my God. And he was saying it like, totally been like totally believable to the point where like at P he's three people came over to me and they were like, oh, you're the mines.

You're the mines behind the games guy. Right. And I'm like, and I was like super honored, you know? Yeah. But then like this one guy comes over to me and he's like all nervous. And he's like, can I take a picture with you? And I'm like, sure. And I take the picture with him and it just felt so weird. Yeah. And so after, after he takes the picture, I'm like, can I ask like why you wanted to take the picture?

And he was just like, cuz you're you're Randy Savage's son. Right. And I'm just like,

[00:30:56] Benja: lost you for a sec.

Got a little connection going on there. I don't know what's happening. That's what happened when somebody's on the east coast?

I hope this clears up. While, while we got Patrick over there, let me see shout out to shout out to comedy legend. It's Mike 6, 15 45, St R. Thanks everybody for joining us. Mateo, Mateo, and mom. Hey he says as a corporate trainer, I can detest that. The hardest thing to do is get people to pivot projects, especially artists.

Yeah. Getting artists to, you know, when you're doing art, getting into a certain zone. And trying to think on visuals, think on expression and characterization the world a certain way. And then somebody asks you to pivot. That's really, it, it is pretty difficult. So I can totally understand how getting artists to pivot is, is an issue.

But artists, artists are very hard to work with. I mean, you get good stuff out of them, but it's just really hard to have them you know, maintaining artists. So any tips on doing that are definitely appreciated. Let's see if we can get Patrick back in here, hopefully his wifi didn't explode or something, send him an invite, but yeah for those who are just coming in I didn't do too much of an intro this time, but oh, we got you back.

[00:32:36] Patrick: Yeah. Sorry about that. I actually got the notification that my phone was too hot. I guess our conversation was getting a little too juicy. Damn so. But what was the last thing I said? I'm sorry. I apologize. No, you throw up the flowery background that my wife uses during her lives, so, oh, that's

[00:32:52] Benja: wonderful.

oh, that, that that's kind of call me, actually. I feel better now.

[00:32:56] Patrick: Oh my God. So now I'm standing and my phone is off the, the built-in charger. So I'm gonna stand the rest of the interview and just wing it. We're gonna kill it.

[00:33:02] Benja: So this is what I'm talking about. Yeah. No, you mentioned you know, mark Tramel taking then taking a picture with some as, as macho man's son, but you really.


[00:33:12] Patrick: it was so crazy. So then I immediately messaged Jeff jar and I was like, that guy thought that I was macho man's son. And then like later in the day, like two other people came over to me and they're like, oh, you're Andy Savage's son. Right. And I'm like, oh my God, cuz this guy Jeff jar is so like, he's silky smooth.

He could sell a lady in a white dress, a ketchup Popsicle, like it's crazy. You know? So yeah. Having him at our booth and like selling the game and him like actually understanding the pitch, like imagine a wrestler, shooting a promo on your game. Like it's just like, he's a great person to have, you know, on your team because people believe what he says.

So it's pretty wild. No, I

[00:33:52] Benja: always I, I never liked convincing people and going around talking to them. So I always tried to pair up with somebody that was doing the talking. Sure. And, and then once they got started, I would kinda like elbow them outta the way it's like, all right, you don't know what you're talking about.

And then I'd like finish up. But no, I could totally respect that and definitely see that from Jeff Jarret. So that is, that is pretty awesome, man. And you guys, I don't wanna say you're on tour, but you're going out, you're promoting the game here and there. Yeah. How much more do you have to do?

[00:34:20] Patrick: There's a bunch more on the docket, a bunch of stuff I can't talk about yet, but like, yeah, abso absolutely like there's definitely some more media coverage coming.

There's definitely some more events coming and yeah, you'll most likely see me at those events too. So I'm super excited. PAC east was my first PAC east, so it was just like, it was so much fun to be like in Boston to speak to people and things. Everyone was masked up, so and I, I don't think attendance was like as big, obviously as like, it was in years past, cuz it was like their first you know, their first year back.

Yeah. But. Just being around so many people and getting to meet so many people. And like our panel was super well attended. Like there was easily like 500 people at the panel. Right. So it was still a great experience, nonetheless. And I think attendance is just gonna get like, better and better. Like I just did solo con two weeks ago in Pennsylvania.

And there was totally like, there was, there was definitely like over 5,000 people there in the two days. So like it was cool to see all those people out. I did not get COVID from being around all those people. So I feel like, you know, like I hope things are getting better. I know like, this is like a, this is gonna be like, almost like a permanent part of our lives.

People are gonna be getting COVID now for like, you know, the next hundred years or whatever, you

[00:35:29] Benja: know. Well now they're talking well now monkeypox is going around. And I think that, I don't know, we're in a weird space right now. Absolutely. But I'm glad to see that people are taking efforts to bring back, you know, now, now that we know how to do the virtual thing.

We can still say, okay, even though we've done virtual, we know how to get back out there, have fun with people. I was just talking earlier in the week with Omar about ComicCon and how that was, and it seems like the big events, you know, your packs east, your packs, prime, your your San Diego ComicCon New York.

ComicCon those will probably be fine because they're like, well, if I'm going to miss one, it's not going to be the big one. Yeah. But they may miss out on a lot of the smaller ones. And that's what I'm wondering about.

[00:36:17] Patrick: Yeah, absolutely. Like I did I did a little mini ComicCon in Staten island like in may and at one point it was like completely empty for like an hour.

And a couple of people from my company were like, this sucks and I'm just. And then it, it, so the thing is, it's just like people, those that morning rush that a lot of people are used to, like in the beginning of cons, I that's not as much. And then the thing is like the people staying all the way to the end, that's not happening either.

So I think like people are coming in getting what they want, trying to look around a little bit and then they're out. Like, cuz I remember when I would go to New York ComicCon I would stay the whole day. Yeah. You know, and I, I feel like people, people aren't doing that anymore. They they're going in, they're hitting their hotspot.

They're walking down artist alley pretty quick unless, and looking for to see if there's anything cool. And then they're out. Like the staying isn't happening anymore

[00:37:06] Benja: is, is, is the social aspect down a little bit, cuz I remember cons before, you know, you saw somebody with a shirt you're like boom, half hour conversation.

You saw somebody, you know, buying something that you're into or you had a question about something and there was a lot of. , you know, I was about to say social networking, but I didn't mean that, but there was just a lot of talking and networking. Is that kind of down or

[00:37:29] Patrick: how is it looking? So I, me and you, we think the same exact way.

So like, when I, when I'm rocking, you know, when I was rocking the wrestle quest booth, if I saw somebody with a cool shirt, I'd be like, oh, you got a great shirt. And I would try and bring 'em in, try and introduce 'em to the game. Whenever I see somebody with a championship belt that I really like, I wanna take a picture with it.

So I'll be like, I'll, I'll show you the game. You let me get your, you know, United States title from 1983, I'm taking a picture with it, you know? Yeah. And usually that's not that big of a deal. But yeah, a couple of times people like, eh, like you could tell people are a little bit more guarded.

There's definitely like I'm old school hand shaking super important to me. I love to shake hands. I look, I like to look somebody in the eye, shake your hands. Now it's very much mm. And elbows and stuff. So. The connection sometimes for some people isn't there. And then I'm noticing too. I have, I've been meaning to speak about this for a long, long time.

Like the youth of this generation, like the 16 to like 21, they've been extremely affected by COVID by being inside for the past two years. And they're like, not nearly as social. I mean, when I was 18, oh my God. Like, I was like, I wanted to talk to everybody. I wanted to hug everybody. I wanted to fist bump.

I wanted to handshake everybody. And they're, they're, they're very much like, you know, and it's hard. It's super hard to connect to 'em because that's a huge cross actually. Like when you're, you're talking about comic books, talking about video games, these are the people that you want to be influenced by your art.

Yeah. And they're so scared to like, you know, to get involved. It's, it's pretty wild, you know, and to see how it might affect, you know, our arts moving forward is gonna be interesting.

[00:39:02] Benja: Yeah, totally. I, you know, speaking of the arts, it's like walking past people and. , you know, you're in a, you're in a confined space and you were saying like, just go through artist alley, and then just, okay.

I didn't see anything. And then leave. Mm-hmm man that my dad used to Dr. My dad used to drop me off at the mall and would say, Hey, listen at around mall closes at nine o'clock. My dad would say, Hey, listen. At around, not at around eight 30, I'm gonna come in the mall. I'm gonna go to this department store.

And then I'm gonna sit in the food court and sip a Coca-Cola and eat some fries until the mall closes, meet me in the food court or the department store. If you can find me there. And he knew what I was doing was just going around, talking to people, Hey, how's it going? And this and that. Yep. And it's, that sounds so weird and old fashioned now.

But when I watch kids who are put in the same environment and they can't really look at each other, that weirds me

[00:40:05] Patrick: out. Yeah, they can't make eye contact with each other. You know, it's like, it's so wild yesterday. I was over my sister-in-law's house and my nephew's 13 and I love him. And he is a hardcore gamer.

And my sister-in-law's friend came over and she has a 15 year old son. So it was just like the 15 year old. And the 13 year old, my 13 year old nephew is a huge Nintendo fan boy, like link Kirby, the whole nine yards. And the 15 year old is in a little bit of a different space. So he's more grand theft, auto, more Sony and stuff.

Mm-hmm , but they're both hardcore gamers and they would not make eye contact with each other and talk to each other. And I was just like, man, if I was, if I was a 13 year old kid and there was a 15 year old, like in the same room with me that played video games, I would be like, well, what do you play? Blah, blah, blah, like nonstop conversation.

And I'm here in the middle trying to facilitate conversation between the two of them. Like, what do you like, what do you like, da da, da, da. And it's. Why is it so hard? It used to be, you know, when I was a kid, let's just like, let's just talk about our fandom. Like, you know, what teams do you like, what characters do you like?

Did you see that girl that was on that block? Well, like, like the conversation was just so easy. You would just make friends with somebody so fast and just jump in and now everyone's so everyone's so guarded and scared now, like to connect. It's super it it's, it's a little scary sometimes. Yeah.

[00:41:16] Benja: I, I do think though that, you know, even, even with that in place, I still think that this weird you know, this current era of pop culture really provides a great bridge.

Like we're talking about comics, games and wrestling, and it's like, there's a weird actually, lemme get your case in this. Sure. What is the connection with comics, wrestling and games? Because I can always find somebody who's into one and can kind of bridge over to. You know, they're in wrestling, then comics and games comes along or whatever.

What is that connection?

[00:41:49] Patrick: I think it's just storytelling. I think it's just organic. I think it's just organic, natural storytelling. And it's the suspense of disbelief. It's like the greatest video games take you to another world. The greatest comic books take you to another world, the greatest wrestling you go to yourself.

Yeah. I know that's fake, but that, that elbow in the corner, that shit looked real or, yeah, they're not together in real life. Yeah. But they just kissed. Mm. If I was their, you know, husband or wife, I would be a little. So just like that suspense that, you know, suspense of disbelief, it caters to all three.

And I feel like for people that are really looking, they can totally find something, you know, that grabs them from all three of those, all three of those mediums they're and they're all art at the same at the same time too, you know?

[00:42:34] Benja: Yeah, totally. So, so now you're do, you're doing your thing with legacy comics This is awesome.

I like the, the comics will always have a place in my heart. And I wanna ask you, what does legacy comics mean? What is not just the, not just the title, but like what are, what is the vibe behind it?

[00:42:55] Patrick: So the vibe is very much myself going out and finding people that want to tell amazing and different stories and giving them an opportunity that they didn't know existed or an opportunity that maybe someone else didn't give them.

So it's just like, I mean, I look at Joshua Adams, I look at Steve conj. I look at Kirin Quinn. I look at Valentine Quinones. I look at all of the artists that have Joshua I look at all of these people. I said, Joshua's name already, almost said his name twice. That's how good he is. I look at these people and these are people that like, didn't even know, like really had to go about.

Pitching their stuff to like DC or Marvel, or maybe they pitched stuff to image or a dark horse, and they never got back to them or like maybe they were in Kiran and I's case where like they finished they finished a pitch to like dark horse and image, and then COVID happened and they, these places weren't accepting pitches from anybody.

So it just like, I, I think of legacy as like, kind of like the Montreal expose of, of comic books. Like we're not gonna be able to afford you when you're, when you're not a, you know, restricted when, when you're an unrestricted free agent, but when we we'll draft you and. We'll have you while you're a restricted free agent and, and we'll do everything that we possibly can to keep you, and we'll give you as big a print run as we possibly can.

And we'll promote you as hardcore as, as you can, as we can. And we'll give you the tools to like, learn how to promote yourself and stuff like that. But it's just like, it's about giving people opportunities to tell amazing stories. And one of the big problems I wouldn say necessarily it's a problem, but it's just like a lot of people in the meetings that I've had so far with like licensees and with people that wanted to invest in us is that they confused us for a studio rather than a publishing house.

So it's just like, so what's the difference there? So a studio is basically like people like pumping out like original IP is like, for the sake of like building the studio, you know, mm-hmm and, and the thing is like, we kind of started off as like a publishing house that had like studio tendencies, you know?

So just like my whole thing is, it's just like, I modeled this after like, A bunch of the publishers that I've worked with in the past, like, listen, we're gonna pay for your print run. We're gonna market you and stuff like that. But it's like really up to you to like, sell your book. Like I wanna build, like, I wanna help people build their individual brands, you know?

Right. Like I want people to have strong individual brands. Like I want, I want the legacy brand to be like, less than this. Well, not less than, but like a sum of its parts. Like, I want people to be like, legacy is this, this, this, this, this like eight or nine strong, solid comic book, you know, series like, and, and the thing is I don't want, and I've had this, this happens to me every day.

Someone will pitch me an idea and they'll be like, I just need an artist. And I'm like, well, then you have to find an artist, you know, because we're a publisher, you know, pitch us like you are finished. Project don't come to me and be like, oh, I need an artist or, oh, I'm a great artist. And I need a writer.

Maybe I might have a script that I could hook somebody up with and be like, all right, let's do business. But like, I really like, I wanna meet people that have stuff that's like already, like ready to go. And then I could help them get to the next level. So it's like that, that, and the beginning through like our first year, because I mean, we filed the LLC August 18th of last year.

So we haven't even been in business a year yet. We've published nine comics and we're gonna publish like five more come full. So just like, we've been like super busy, but like the thing is it just like, we really take like finished products and like, you know, get them out to the masses. Like we're helping, like these first time, you know, writers and artists get their stuff out to the masses.

We're putting teams together is a lot harder than just publishing. And we've been doing a lot more of putting teams together than we have publishing in the beginning because obviously we're building our brand, but like, I never want people to think that we're a studio because. Because we're not, you know, like we don't have, we don't necessarily like have the tools to like, do all of those things, you know?

So, but like publishing, like I can help people publish. I can edit books, I can publish books and stuff, but like taking, like, I can edit a script from start to finish, but it's just like, it's so much easier if someone comes to you and is like, listen, this is what I wanna do. And I go, okay, for us, this works for us because we could publish this and da, da, da, but it's just like having somebody not have something mm-hmm and then have to take them from like page one all the way that's, that's something a studio would do, you know?

Right, right. So, and I mean, I might invest that much energy in somebody if I feel like that they were, you know, worth, worth it. But for the most part, like, I wanna take people that are like ready to go. So that's been, that's been like, probably like the biggest challenge, but like to answer your question, I mean, we were like really formed from like, I had worked for lesser known comics for like eight months and the longer that I would work there, I would go, I wouldn't do it that way.

Hmm. I wouldn't do it that way. Or I'm doing all of this. we should be here and we're here, you know? Right, right. And my wife tells me all the time. She's like, you're not happy unless you're the boss. She's like, you're not happy unless you're the boss or you're not happy unless you could look at your boss and go, bro.

Mm. You know? So it's like like I've been in situations before, like when I was at NBC mm-hmm . If, if my boss was talking, I had that much respect, like Dick Beski, Greg Giri, I would just stand behind him, like ARN Anderson and the four horseman. Yeah. I just had my arms crushed and be like, I got him. Yeah.

He's gonna give me a spot. I'm gonna go. And I'm gonna do it to the best of my ability. And I'm a company guy and I'm gonna do the best that I can. If I don't feel that way, then I'm gonna have to do that shit on my own. And that's what happened with, with lesser known. I, they were all super nice, but I was like, you know what?

I have to go and do this on my own and take like old, like nineties comics, Daredevil, you know, Deadpool, punishers some Wolverine and stuff that gritty crime to war and image comics spawn. And that's like, that's kind of like the heart of like what we're trying to do. We're really trying to bring back like.

Those old school comics, like that type of storytelling. So,

[00:48:31] Benja: oh, I like that now with legacy it seems to have a you mentioned Daredevil, you know it seems to have a street level kind of vibe. I don't know if you heard Figi a little while ago mentioned that Spiderman and Daredevil are gonna kind of lead their new street level, you know, series whatever is, is it fair to say that legacy comics is, is kind of aiming for that street level first at least, or what?

[00:48:54] Patrick: Yeah, absolutely. So it's like, I would say like our three flagship series right now are condre which is about a homeless vigilante in Brooklyn, that's trying to find out who killed this wall in like New York city has New York city is basically run by this drug cartel that It's just like destroyed the entire infrastructure of, of New York city.

They run the cops, they run the government, the whole nine yard. So it's very gritty, very urban and stuff. There's another comic in that universe called the job. And it's about a professional wrestler that loses all of his matches, but he's got a great car and he is got a hot wife and everyone wonders why?

And the answer is they Rob banks together because wrestling doesn't pay the bills. So that's like very gritty. Like it takes like a look at like the dingy side of like pro wrestling and stuff, like when people just get started. So that's very like dark and gritty and stuff. And then the legend of the night owl, that's that's like, to me, those are like our top three, like right off the bat is about, it's the same thing.

Like Brooklyn is just in a state of disrepair and this, this, this woman and her son take it upon themselves to like really clean up the streets, like E even like we have a manga I like to call it an American manga, because there's definitely not enough American manga out there by the, this wonderful team, Dan Evans and Joshua Adams from South Carolina, where they're just, it's, it's totally like if rage against the machine and like your favorite, like adult swim comic, like had a baby, you know, and it's just like this really dark, gritty, like American mango.

So yeah. That's like kind of like what we're going for. Absolutely. So, you

[00:50:20] Benja: know, you know, what's funny I think people from maybe, maybe a few steps away from what you're doing and we, we had this problem at we kind of had a little bit of this problem at rockstar. People didn't get it. They're like, oh, it's the same thing.

It's just, you know, mean person, you know, tough world and they're gonna go shoot stuff or beat stuff up. And mm-hmm and I, I honestly kind of didn't get it until I got to rockstar. Where I was like, oh, it's not just a one trick pony. They're really just tuned in to this vibe. And I think that's what you're telling me here that like, yeah, we're tuned into a vibe right now.

How do you make that? So it's, doesn't appear stale or static or boring to people or do even care for people who don't get it.

[00:51:10] Patrick: I, I just think I, I, my best advice, like for people that are like intrigued in our product or people that like, want more question that have questions is like, just read it, you know, cuz it's like, even though they have this old like gritty urban noir aesthetic, they're all very different from one another.

So like for me, like I used to joke around and I still do with people on the team. Like the perfect, like pat Hickey page in a comic is probably like one or two panels and it's all monologue because it's just like, I feel like what, what goes on inside people's heads is more important than what they say, you know?

And. That's like my style of writing, but like Afro Joni who writes the legend of the night owl, he is very dialogue heavy. And it's because he's an actor he's been on Daredevil. He's been on law and order and stuff like that. And he's a stuntman, he's a third degree, black belt in show Toon, but he loves dialogue.

So it just like, we're kind of doing the same thing, but we're doing it in two completely different ways, you know? So it's all of our books like read differently, but they have similar aesthetics. I mean, it's the same thing. When you think about it, like what rockstar was doing? LA noir grant theft, auto, max pain, they all have like, yeah, mm-hmm, elements of that noir and like grittiness and urbanness, but they all do it completely different from one another, you know?

So that's what I would tell people. So it's just like the noir and the grit, like kind of gets you in the door, but then when you experience the storytelling, that's what makes a difference. Like Cerrito, like my newest book. I mean, that's, that's, that's got some, no in it, but at the end of the day, it's a coming of age tale.

About a woman that's like fighting for her family in a, in a city that like really doesn't give a shit. So it's very different from, you know, what you might expect from just looking at the cover or seeing like what our other offerings are. Yeah.

[00:52:46] Benja: When I saw the, the washing the shit stained underwear in the kitchen, I was like, you know what, that's, that's a vibe and that's only something you could do if you had a proper world around it.

Yeah. It it's just such a simple scene, but yeah, I

[00:53:08] Patrick: I've been there. I've been there, you know, it's just like, I used to joke around like the ghost face killer one, like, you know, all that I got is you and it's like plucking roaches out the cereal box and stuff. And it's just like, I'm this blonde hair?

Blue eyed white boy from Brooklyn. I've I've been there, you know, I've had hot dogs and macaroni and cheese, 25 days outta the month, you know, as a kid, you know, for dinner, you know, I had chicken on the bow every night because it was the cheapest meal that you could have, you know, like I ate rice all the time because it was cheap.

You know, I had instant mashed potatoes. I, I used to love what my mom would make real mashed potatoes, you know, like, cuz it was like a rarity, you know, it was like delicacy. So it just like I wrote that I'll never forget writing that comic. I was putting my son to bed and he was probably like eight months and I was just holding him and condre wanted to just come out and that was like the introduction of the Cerita character in condre and I just love her.

I love her as a character. I just think she stands for like everything that's like good and honest. And she's true. She's like if, if full Pierce could be transplanted into like an old woman, like she is the truth, you know, like she, she, she says what she means and she means what she says and I just, I had my iPhone out and I lowered the light all the way.

Down. And I went into my notes and I just started banging out the, you know, the script. And there's so many times like, you know, when I was like in fourth or fifth grade, my dad didn't have a job. And my mom was doing our laundry, like in the kitchen sink with dish detergent, you know? And my dad was a big boy built like donkey con like, you know, five foot, 10, 300 pounds and stuff.

And man, I would see those, those underwear and stuff like that. I'm like, man, ma man, Ugh, like you you're sacrificing like no woman should ever have to do that. You know, I make sure that my wife never has to clean my underwear, you know, but a lot of women, a lot of women did back in the day, you know, and they, and they didn't, they didn't hold it against their husbands, you know, like they did, they did that for, for their family.

They sacrificed. And when I think of like cer Rita and like that character and so many women now, they're like in their fifties, sixties, seventies, eighties, man, they lived for their families, you know? And I just wanted to tell a story of like so many women that I knew. Growing up that just sacrificed so much for their families.

Yeah. You know, so, and

[00:55:15] Benja: what you're saying there, I, I really like that cuz I, I have problem, not problems, but I look for artists who are actually authentically expressing something and you know as opposed to, I think this is cool or this, this is the new style or Hey, here's what this other company's doing.

We need to ride that wave all. That's all fine. Good. But at the end of the day, I'm really coming to ask you, what's your story? What are you trying to express? What, you know, how are you pushing things through? And I I'm guessing legacy comics pushes that as well because that's what you seem to be doing.


[00:55:58] Patrick: man, absolutely. I mean, it's so funny. Like I told you, like the last two weeks have been really. I've been really important in building like the structure and the foundation that I feel like that this company needed to have from like day one. And we, we had most of it, but now I feel like that we're really like there.

And we had one, we had one book that was your traditional superhero book. You know, the Cape, the utility belt, the whole nine yards, and it wasn't selling it wasn't and, and it, it didn't vibe the same way as the other stuff did. And it just like, it got to the point where we were just like, you know what, we're gonna take a step away from this and all of our books now.

There's not one like traditional dun dun, you know, because I feel like that shit is dead. You know, mm-hmm like, you could have Superman, you could have Batman and stuff, but I just feel like for somebody to come along and create another Superman or Batman is just so much harder. it's, it's almost like next to impossible at this point.

And I feel like, I feel like it's so much more important to try and tell as real stories as possible. That's why, that's why like condre is like this homeless vigilante, you know, because it's just like that that's, that's different. That's, that's real, you

[00:57:04] Benja: know, that's a crazy concept on its own. I mean, I just, I don't hear about that very often.

It's like, okay, I can rock with

[00:57:11] Patrick: it. Yeah. You know, it's just like try and like, like it's like the job, you know, it's about a professional wrestler. Does he win every match? No, he, he pretty much loses every match, you know? And wait, wait, he rubs banks with his wife and I'm like, yeah. I'm like, it's like dog day afternoon.

And he mixed with like Mickey ROS, the wrestler, you know, and people go, oh, that's cool. You know, day, afternoon and heat. I don't even know of. you never saw a heat before Al Pacinos Al Kilmer. Oh,

[00:57:37] Benja: oh, heat. I thought, I thought the title was dog day afternoon. Oh, dog day

[00:57:40] Patrick: afternoon is another, it's a, I mean, that's a classic bank robber.

It's a movie. Okay. Yeah, yeah. You know, with some French connection in there, you know? Yeah, yeah. You know, it's bank heist and pro wrestling, you know? So just like, you know, that's, I, I feel like we live in almost like a fusion society now, a hybrid society where it's just like, people are wrestle.

Quest is a perfect example of that. It's a Japanese RPG and pro wrestling mix, you know? So it's just like, those are two things that probably should have happened a super long time ago, but they never did. You know? And it's just like, for me, when I'm creating like a new, you know, series, or I'm trying to like tell a story, I'm like, how do I like bring in things that people are gonna find relat.

but make it different and make it fun. So it just like C Rita, isn't like your normal woman. So if like you've read, like condre zero through four. So, so far, you know that like C Rita on the outside looks like you're, you know, your typical elderly woman, but she's not to be messed with in any way, because like, you know, your main character, con's like six foot, 9, 280 pounds.

He's petrified of her, you know? Yeah. But he, and he knows that he needs her. So it's just like, I, I love to like throw those little hooks in the reader to get them comfortable and then throw and then spin them around and give them something that's different. That's so much better than just like, he's a superhero.

He was born on this story and blah, blah. It's like, come on, man. We gotta, we gotta try and evolve a little bit. We gotta try and tell stories a little bit different than this. It worked for Stanley. It worked for Dico and stuff, but it's not gonna work for you. You know? And so many people that want to get into comics are so, and it's the same thing too.

I'm sure you you've encountered this too. So many people that want to get into video games are like, I'm gonna create like the next platform or the next superstar platformer. And it's like, You're probably not gonna create the next Mario. You know, that's why, like, I mean, when I reached out to you, it was like war jets.

I wanted to talk to you about war jets. I wanted to talk to you about rockstar table tennis. Those, these are different games that did great things, you know?

[00:59:26] Benja: So it's just like that. And that's what I'm you. And that, and that's part of the reason I was on those projects is just because I was so invested in like, Hey, wait a minute.

We can make a mark here. We can do this, that there. Yes. So let me ask you this though, with mm-hmm with the way things are right now you know, we're getting news that DC may be getting completely rebooted. Again, yeah, I don't, I don't know if anyone, if anyone's heard the news, but real, really quick recap.

Discovery owns a lot of stuff. They ended up buying all kinds of companies and Warner got absorbed into their big buying spree. Discovery is a major force for those of you who don't know. And now they're, they've got Warner and it looks like they're cutting stuff. The background movie's gone, the CWS gone, all the flash is gone.

A lot of your ancillary DC projects are gone and it's looking like they're gonna do a DC reboot completely. And then on the other hand, we have Marvel who seems to be doing what I would say more of the same, but just changing characters out. Yeah. Like, oh, well we never had a, you know, I'm all, I'm all for the diversity side of it.

So that's not what I'm getting at here, but it seems like they're just taking different characters in different situations, different scenarios and trying to place their same, those people or those different scenarios, those storylines into the same old formula without making it interesting. Yeah. I hope I'm clear with that, but it's like, yeah.

the fantastic four should have a fundamentally different story than the Avengers. Mm-hmm that X-Men, or the mutants should have a fundamentally different story than all these other characters. And I kind of see them all running together at Marvel. Like what's the difference between black widow and Hulk?

I'm not totally sure, by the way you're telling the story. Yep. I'm I'm incredibly entertained, but I don't know where this is going. So what are your thoughts on like what's happening with the superhero industry right now?

[01:01:31] Patrick: I mean, it's one of the reasons why this comic book company was started to try and tell different stories to try and make like, I mean, that's the thing.

Each, each book that we release feels different. It's, you know, it, the characters have their own soul, so to speak and it's like, I've interviewed easily over a hundred comic book writers and artists over the years and like the best ones. I remember interviewing Christopher Claremont in his house and.

Him referring to Wolverine as Logan and him referring to Cyclops as Scott. And I remember when it happened, I was kind of like, this guy is fucking crazy. And then I'm like, now I'm like, no, those characters are real to him. Yeah. You know, like, and, and my whole thing is it just like, I think a lot of that is lost.

Like for me, the Thor movies that Kenneth bra directed and stuff, they had like a very epic and like Shakespeare kind of feel to them. And I'm like, it's because of his background, but it's also like, that's the way Thor felt to me as a kid, it felt more epic. It felt more polished and stuff. And now it's like, Thor is just like, kind of like every other Marvel character.

He's really good looking. And he's really fucking cool. And he's funny. And his, his, his movies have great soundtracks and stuff like that. And it's just like, why a store so much more like Deadpool than Deadpool is like, so, you know, it's just like, why is this going on? You know,

[01:02:49] Benja: do you, do you think that's like the Disney influence?

[01:02:51] Patrick: Absolutely. Because they're saying to themselves. how do we market this to kids? How do we make as much money off of like, you know, main, how do we make this as mainstream as possible? And you know, for me, it's just like, when people ask me, what's your favorite comic book movie of all time, I go, you know what?

I love spawn Michael J. White John, like Zamo they killed it. They nailed like what that comic book was about. It wasn't necessarily the greatest comic book movie of all time. But man, like they captured the source material, you know, they didn't make it like super fan friendly. That movie was not for everyone.

The nine inch nails. Oh, not nine inch nails, a typo negative soundtrack. Wasn't for everyone. But it captured the essence of the source material. So there are some people that go out there and they're like, oh my God. Like, oh, that movie was great. And it's just like, but you don't know. Like you haven't read enough Thor to know how great the movie actually was.

You haven't read enough Avengers to know, and that that's the audience that they're going for. They're going for people that are like, oh, I've seen the action figures. I remember like little bits and pieces from the comics and stuff. I just wanna go in with like a fresh take and stuff. It's like, I remember when they announced the first guardians of the galaxy movie and I'm like, why isn't Adam warlock in this?

And so many people like who, who, and I'm just like, yeah, the conversation's over. We're not talking right now. Like you could watch that. And I love the guardians of the galaxy movies. I love them, but I love them for a different reason. Then I love the comics, you know? So it just like, my whole thing is like, I wanna, if my comics ever get, you know, optioned out and stuff like that to like movies or video games and stuff, I'm gonna be like super protective of like maintaining the aura.

Like when I think of like, again, this one movie, it wasn't, it's not the greatest movie all time, but it captures something. The Crow movie, you know, Yeah. Captured something. When come, when you look at like the, the, you know, James Debar is like, you know, original, you know, comics and you look at that, there's something there.

Like it captures, like it's like meeting somebody digitally and then meeting them online and being like, you know what, that's the same person, you know? It's like, it happens to me all the time where like, I'll meet somebody that I've known in the digital realm for quite some time. And I meet them in person.

And I'm like, they don't have the, the courage in themselves or the confidence in themselves to be the person that they are online. Like in person, they may be a little bit more reserved, this, that I respect people that are like, so close to what they project, you know? Like, I love those people. Like, I


[01:05:17] Benja: like you're one of those people, like, like you run into the first and it's like, oh yeah, that's, that's, that's what I expected.


[01:05:22] Patrick: yeah. You know, like the same shit that they would say on Facebook is the same thing that they would say to you like to your face, you know, instead of like, you know, and I feel like Disney Disney's doing that now. Like it's like, that would not be in the comic, but it would be in the Disney movie, you know, or like.


[01:05:37] Benja: it's right. I get it. And, and this goes back to that authenticity thing. So you seem, have you always been this authentic of a person? I can tell you. I wasn't, because for a long time I struggled with, well, here's how I want to be, but then I got a lot of pushbacks from the people around me and I was like, okay, that's fine.

I'm not going to, you know, be weird or anything, but I'm just gonna, I I'm, I'm not going to come out front and be like, Hey, listen guys there's a comic book convention, I'm doing this and that. And that it was a little bit of a, a process for me where I had to like, all right, whatever. I'm just gonna go be on my own.

And then at some point I was like, wait a minute. You know, why am I going away to, to do what I want to do instead of just being authentic where I am? You know what I mean? Have you always been kind of authentic you're from New York, so it seems easier. Yeah.

[01:06:29] Patrick: That's the thing. It's just like, I, I feel like there's a, there's a, that's a low, that's a super loaded question.

How dare you ask me that? So the thing is like I have a twin brother, so for a really long time, I, I had to be like the protector. I had to be the quiet, like reserved protector, cuz my brother was like Kramer from Seinfeld, like just a mad man, you know? Like he would just, I, and I would have to make sure that like he was okay because he would literally like do anything and everything to get himself into trouble.

And it wasn't until I went to high school by myself to a different high school that I started to learn about myself. You know, that I was a little bit more charismatic than maybe I had thought or maybe like I could do things that I normally wouldn't have been able to do if I was around my brother.

And then then when I went to college and I started studying journalism, journalism is all about trying to get information out of people. Mm-hmm and it's super selfless because you're asking questions and they don't care what you have to say. So you just keep your mouth shut and you just ask, so provoked questions and you do your research and.

So it was just like, again, still, I would spend all this time researching and asking people questions and I would never get to show that other side of me. Then when I started writing the books, the minds behind the games, books, and people would start to ask me questions and I would start to talk and people would go, oh, you know, like, you're really cool.

You're really chill. You, you know, you're down to earth. Oh, blah, blah. You're charismatic. And I would just go, okay. But a lot of it too is teaching, cuz like I've been a college professor for 16 years. So my whole thing is like, it's like I try and explain this, like to a lot of the young male professors in my school because like, you know, men talk, you know, in the teachers, lounge are like, oh, all the women, they love me, blah, blah, blah.

All, all the young girls, they love me, you know? And I'm just like, of course they do. You're speaking about something that you're passionate about, that you're knowledgeable about, that you went to school about. If you can't get people to love you, when you're talking about things that you love, you're doing it.

So they don't love you. They just respect you because you know what you're talking about, you're misconstruing like your energy. So my whole thing is it just like, I try to make sure, like, to be able to read the room. Like, I mean, when I was in Tennessee last week, I kept my mouth shut for a big part of the trip because I was around people that I felt like, man, I could learn a lot from these people.

So let me keep my, let me keep my mouth shut. Let me stand there. Let me listen. And then when my time came to speak, then I spoke, you know? So it's just like, it's just a matter of like, it, it took me a long time. I, I credit a lot of like my coming out, so to speak my blossoming socially to my daughter being born, you know, like Danny Glover was 41 when he said I'm too old to this shit in lethal weapon.

Yeah. And like, I feel like I was like 33 when my daughter was about to be born. I was just like, you know what? I gotta start doing all the things that I want to do. Because if I don't, then I don't wanna be one of those people that look at their kids and go, I could have been this, but I had kids and stuff.

I I'm like, you know what? I want my kids to be proud of me. Like two days. How old is she now? She's five and my son's two. Okay. So it's just like, my daughter came, I picked her up from gymnastics, cuz she goes to like summer camp and stuff like that for gymnastics. And she's like, oh, I told like three people about your comics and now they wanna buy your comics.

Like she's proud of me. And like, to me, that's like, oh my God, you know, that's like the greatest thing in the world. So it's just like, I feel like if I don't come out of my shell, if I don't like try and project like the hustle, the passion and stuff like that, then what kind of example am I setting for my kids?

You know? Like what, what kind of example am I setting for, for myself? You know, I go to bed, I wake up tired every morning. I go to bed tired every morning I go to bed every night. I mean, exhausted. So it's just like, that's what you gotta do. So it's just like a total fun. I think

[01:09:57] Benja: that's a, I think that's a better term exhausted rather than.

Tired. Yeah. Mm-hmm, , you know, I just, I just started making that distinction because when you go home and you're exhausted, it's like, man, that was a good I was talking about this on, on Tuesday with Dr. Here bottom mm-hmm where she's like, yeah. There's that certain exhilaration you get when you're, when you're doing your thing back to the passion we were talking about.

Yeah, man, you're doing your thing. You're knocking out your passion. You're creating, you're building something. And at the end of it, you're, you're, you've got, you're exhausted, but you're kind of still got that exhilaration going on and you, and then you can like rest up for the next run later and you're feeling good as opposed to just being beat down and tired, which is something completely

[01:10:41] Patrick: different.

Yep. And that's the thing though, too. It's just like, it's okay to be beaten down and tired, you know, but it's just like, you've gotta find like that extra gear and you gotta do it every day. You know, it's just. It's super hard. I think like stone cold, Steve us, and said like the easiest way to be successful is to like, be yourself and to just turn the volume up as high as you possibly can, you know?

And it's just like, that's what I try and do every day. I try and push my stuff every single day and, and I push it. I try and push it in a way where, you know, people know that it's not gloating. It's not, this is that. It's just that I genuinely believe that like I'm doing solid stuff that deserves more attention.

So it's a, it's a hustle. You know, I had somebody message me like two days ago and they're probably gonna be watching this at some point. So I'm not gonna say their name. They might get a little pissed off at me, but whatever. They were like, how do you, like, how do you do it every day? It seems like it's magic.

And I'm like, dude, it's not magic. I'm like, it's incredibly lonely. It's incredibly like self depriving. You know, it's in, it's, it's sleep depriving, but it's like, you do it because you believe like that you're doing something special, you

[01:11:41] Benja: know? So do you with what you're with what you're doing and this, this strong internal belief.

What are you, do you have something that you're building towards specifically

[01:11:53] Patrick: or? Yeah, man. I mean, one day I would love to buy a house. You know, I would love to own a house. I would love to be able to pay for my kids college, you know, like it's that stuff, you know? So it's just like, I live in New York city, so it's just like, I've been a college professor for 16 years.

I make a six figure salary and it's not enough, you know? And it's just like, I've been blessed that like, I have like disability that I can work on three hours of sleep for 20 years, you know, 20 three hours of sleep a day for 20 years. And like, I have all this energy and, you know, 150 pounds ago, I still had this much energy, you know?

So it's just like, if I don't do something with, oh, this energy, then it's just like, why, why am I here? You know, it's like that woot Whippman oh, me old life, you know, it's like, if I don't do something with it, then it's just a waste, you know? So it's just like, I feel like I have to. I have to be busy, you know, mm-hmm and a lot of people would be like, oh, you're lucky, you know, the voice acting, you got lucky.

Oh you know, the comic book of stuff. Oh, how'd you fall into that? And it's just like, because you do it, you know, you, you, you throw your name in the hat. You know, like my voice acting career started because I was doing dialogue editing on a game because I had interviewed a, a team from Bulgaria that needed help with their English, you know?

So it's just like you just position yourself and you learn from as many people as possible. And you're just in it all the time. It's I don't feel like there's like any, like luck involved, but just you, it's just, you busting your ass every single day and over time, those opportunities, you know? Yeah.

Granted that you treat people the right way and you, you make good on your word and you're consistent and you don't make excuses. That stuff adds up after a while. You know? So, I mean, I'm 39 now, so it's just like, I've got like some, some years of being consistent under my belt. So. You get rewarded after a while.


[01:13:35] Benja: I forgot who it was that said it, but, and I I'm, I'm totally gonna mess it up. So I may have to come back later and, you know, sure. Fix this up. But I, I, I said something or I was thinking something along the lines of, you know, man, well, what happened when you get tired or you run out of creativity or, you know, your tank is empty and without getting too spiritual on me, they were like, you don't run out.

What are you talking about? It's just who you are. Yeah. It's not even, it's not even your personal energy and your personal you know, fire that you're dealing with. You're tapping into, you know, just this, this idea of moving forward, keeping going, rocking on. And I kind of dismissed it. of course, people run outta energy and people do this and that and that, but then I started to meet people who were just on and I was like, why are they on like that?

Yeah. And I was holding myself back from being on, you know what I mean? Mm-hmm sure. And I have you experienced that, you know what I'm talking about?

[01:14:49] Patrick: Yeah. Oh, absolutely. So the thing is like, especially like being a college professor for 16 years, like, especially teaching journalism, when I get young journalists, they're like, well, what happens when you get writer's block?

And I'm like, what's that, you know? And like, it's, I've never had writer's block in my entire life. I may write something that sucks, but I wrote it and I finished it, you know? And then I'll go on to the next thing, you know, and the next thing may not be better, but I still finished it and I'll hold onto it.

And maybe I'll, I'll come back to it and I'll tighten it and I'll fix it and this and that, but it's just like, I always make a habit of if I start something and I finish it, you know, and yeah, the great thing about like, the space that I'm in now is like every day is different. So it's just like, I remember, like I went to Tennessee on Friday, but like Thursday, I thought it was gonna be like an easy day.

And I ended up getting a bunch of voiceover thrown at me for world championship boxing manager too. So I did that and then I'm like, oh, you know what, maybe we should have a, not for legacy comics. What if I do like a live for whatnot? And then I filled out the application for that. Then I was updating the social.

So there's always like little things to do to keep your mind occupied. Yeah. And I made sure I made sure when I started legacy and to my own like benefit, I was smart. At least in this situation, I'm not smart in a lot of other situations, but in this one, I was pretty smart where like all of like the job, all of like all of the job is like the job's basically gonna be like a six story arc.

It's written condre is up to like issue four, but I have up to issue. Written already, like I made sure to get as far ahead of the game as possible, because I knew like if we were running a publishing company that I was gonna have to invest in other people and help build their projects and stuff and help them like right.

Move along. So just like I put my, and that's the thing. I put myself in a situation where I could do those things. So sometimes when you're working, you're like, oh, what am I doing this for it? Some people will go, what am I doing this for? It's not gonna pay me any dividends right now. And I'll go, yeah. But next year at this time, you won't have to write anything cuz you have your stuff.

So then you can focus on marketing. You can focus on this and you can focus on that. Like I'm constantly trying to play the long game as often as possible. You know, I'm trying to like plant as many seeds as possible because then when they start blooming, everyone's like, oh, you're so lucky. And it's like, no, I'm not lucky.

You know? It's like the old

[01:17:02] Benja: you were just on.

[01:17:03] Patrick: Yeah. I was just on, you know, so yeah. And my wife tells me all the time, can you shut it down for a little while? And I'm just like, And I don't know how, you know, I'm gonna be on like, on my deathbed and like holding somebody's hand and being like, start a publishing company with this idea, blah, blah.

Like I can't, I can stop, you know, just, it's just a part of me.

[01:17:25] Benja: That was when we were talking about the, like the rockstar culture a little while back, that's one of the things that you don't hear mentioned very often is that they're just on. Yeah. So when they were talking about like 100 hour weeks, you know, sometimes people would actually decide, this is what I want to do.

And it wouldn't be like a mandate mm-hmm and people didn't, people didn't get that. And they're like, yeah, you know, why, why would you do this? If you don't have to? And it. Trust me we're just on. Yeah. And if you remember the Tony Barnes interview where we were talking, he was talking about ideas. He said, yeah, I got into a, like you, when you said writer's block, this is what made me think of this, where he's like, yeah, I started having ideas and I started having like too many and didn't know what to do with him.

So I started writing every one of them down and I was like, okay, there it goes. Tony got to the point where he's just on. Yeah. And that is such a great feeling. Right? Absolutely.

[01:18:29] Patrick: You know what it is too? It's funny. Cuz it's just like an hour in our conversations with one another. I would say like over the past, like I would say maybe three years.

And the same thing with Tony, I know Tony a little bit longer than you. I said hello to him once I have never said goodbye to him. I don't think I've ever said goodbye to you either because I don't have. Because we know eventually at some point the conversation is going to continue. It may stop for like three or four days or a week or two weeks or whatever mm-hmm

But at some point the conversation is gonna continue because it we're always on. Yeah. You know, how do you,

[01:19:02] Benja: how do you get, you know, when you're, when you're doing your creative thing it, it's not just you individually, you're working with other people. How do you find a vibe where, you know, I like working with this guy or we have a similar energy or whatever, how do you, I don't wanna say how do you work with people, but when you find somebody with another vibe, how do you, how do you cultivate that?

Or how do you keep it from flying off the rails and going bad? I don't know.

[01:19:31] Patrick: So I'll give you like two situations. So like one situation I had is that like people start off super hot. like, they are gung-ho to like, do whatever it needs to be done. And then they hit their first roadblock mm-hmm and then you start to see like a huge dip in their production, in their morale, in their behavior and stuff.

And then you have other people that start off just as hot. And then when they hit their first, like bump in the road, they just get pissed off and angry and more passionate. And those just that second type of person, those are the people that I get along with the most, like those people that have super thick skin.

So like, just from starting legacy, I mean, I had one person that that's what happened. They started off super hot and the first royalty checks came in and they weren't like that. Great. Because it's like, you're a first year comical company that's what's gonna happen. You know, like my first royalty check for like the mines behind the games was like 800 bucks.

And I was just like, that sucks, you know, but it's like, I, I spent, you know, a year writing this book, you know, but now it's just like, now. Now we're good now, you know, the royalty check's coming and I'm like, okay, this is good. This is gonna pay for summer camp, or this will pay this, or this will pay that like now, now it's so, but it's just like, it's, it's hard in the beginning.

And so many people don't see that. And it's just like, I feel like I rub people two ways. I either rub somebody like super preachy where they're like, oh, I don't need, I don't need a pep talk, blah, blah, blah, blah. Like, don't give me a pep talk, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then I have other people that are like, dude, whenever you go on like one of these things and you're just like telling me like what needs to be done and how it needs to be done, because this is what we're trying to build.

It goes, it gets me like that much more hyped. So with, from my experience, the people that get energy from those hype sessions are the people that like don't back down, the second adversity comes. Yeah. You know, so those are the people that I get along with the most, like the artist that I'm working on the job with his name is Steve conj.

And he's amazing. And, and what had happened was I showed another artist that has done work for DC Marvel image. Steve's art and Steve and the, the artist was like, this is great. And I'm waiting for it, but, and gave me like a laundry list of like 10 things that could be fixed. Yeah. Okay. So then naturally being, you know, editor in chief, I present these things to Steve and Steve is just like, man, like really?

And I'm like, yeah, man, that's what he said. And he goes, well, what do you think? And I'm like, he's got a lot more experience than I do. And I trust him. And that's why I asked him what he saw it. So me and him are on the same page. So then Steve is basically like, you know what, I'm gonna do all that. And I'm gonna shove it down his throat and I'm like, man, I love you.

I love that energy. And then he ended up, I mean, he did the Dracula comic for us, the Renfield visions of madness comic, which mm-hmm we got like the endorsement of the bra Stoker estate. They gave us bra stokers unpublished notes to like, write that comic. Yeah, that's great. Yeah. So like our, our Kickstarter got funded in like three and a half hours and like, probably like a week later, the Stoker estate reached out to us and they're like, oh, we have like all these unpublished notes from brand Stoker.

And we have a Stoker historian that would write the story. Could you get us an artist? That's why I told you the whole studio publisher thing that was going on. Yeah. Like, could you get a, could you get us an artist? That could do a comic, like for, for, so it was like, we, that was like, kind of like, we were acting as a studio, even though we were a publisher, but I love Steve and I was like, I want you to do this.

And he is like, really? And he did it. And his first run through of the stuff was great, but it could, it could be better. And like I said, I went and I got like the best person I could to offer me critique. And I presented it to Steve and Steve knocked it out of the park, like completely knocked it out of the park.

And I had another, I had another similar situation where I had another person that has like 35 years of, of comic book experience go over another artist in my company's work. And he was like, this is not up to par. And the other artist was like, oh, well, FM. And I was just like, you're really gonna like dismiss what this guy is saying.

And he's just like, yeah. Oh, it's fine. The way it is, blah, blah, blah. And to make a long story short, that person no longer works for us because I don't, that's not, that's not my style. You know? So

[01:23:43] Benja: Y Y you know, I've only, I've, I've rarely seen where someone says You know, where they get, they get feedback and it's kind of valid feedback and it may be coming from a much more experienced person.

I've, I've only seen that one or two times where someone says, hold on a second and they'll come back with something even greater. That's like, now, what do you think about this? That happened one time when we were, I, I shouldn't say what, where it came from, but there was an established artist doing his thing.

Right. Mm-hmm another guy comes in and he's like, okay what am I supposed to do? Okay. You need to follow in this guy's style, do X, Y, and Z and blah, blah, blah. And he was like, okay. And he starts working on it. He's like, Hey, I had these ideas and da, da, da. And they're like, okay, well here's the, here are the notes from all the experience guys get in line.

And he was like, I can't do that. We're like, okay, you realize, you're saying this to, you know, this guy, who's done this massive project, this guy who did the cover art for these two games, this guy who did this and this you're really saying this right now. And he's like, can I challenge you? And they were like, yes, you may come back in two, come back in two days.

You know, if you're, if your, if your shit's weak, then you know, we get to kick you in the teeth. If it's, if it's good, whatever. So they didn't say like that. They were basically like right, come back in two days with something good. And, you know, they're all just kinda like outside, like, okay, what's gonna happen.

This kid came back with something awesome. And the original artist who set up that entire style of pipeline, they ended up firing him. So that was kind of one of those situations where I was like, okay, if you can do. It happens every once in a while. Yep. But for the most part, I mean, this is just about being able to work towards a better product.

Right? Sure. And I, I wish people would really have more of an open mind and a I don't wanna say friendly because there is competition involved, but a more collaborative, I don't know. There's a way of working without being a punk. And there's a way of working without being you know, a bastard about it and gets the project to a better place.

[01:26:04] Patrick: That's always been like my intention to try and like motivate people as much as possible to make them like wanna work as hard as everyone else is working. So this is, this is one of the reasons why I left like lesser known comics, because I remember like we had a meeting and the CEO at the time was like, at the end of like your introduction, tell us like what your goals are like with this company.

And at the end of it, I was like, well, I wanna be the best goddamn comic in this company. I wanna be the best selling comic in this company. And after the meeting was over, the CEO was like, pat, everyone knows that, like this comic is the best comic. You don't have to say it. Like, we don't want to have a competition like that.

and I was just like, man, seriously, like, no, no, like. I wanna be like, I'm not, I'm not a competitive person, Ben, I am the most competitive person, you know, like that's the way, you know, and I want that to be infectious with all the people that I work with, you know? Yeah. Like if I see somebody's like, oh, you know, like I've done panels with other video game historians.

And it's been hilarious sometimes because I remember one time was like, oh, well, you know, Patrick write books to have a lot of words. And I'm more of like a minimalist writer and I'm just like, what stop, come on, man. Like, what are you doing? Like, yeah. Be proud of what you've done. Like don't under, like, don't, don't feel like you have to make excuses and this and that.

And that's my whole thing. It's just like the people that are like the most successful to me are the ones that are just like, this is who I am. I'm not gonna pretend to be anybody else. I'm gonna push myself as hard as I possibly can. And you're either with me or you're gonna eat at another table because I don't want you to starve.

But if you're not with me, you don't get to eat at my table. You know? So it's just like, that's what, that's what I've tried to do with like legacy and like, you know There's a great book on like leadership. I, oh, the name of it escapes me, but the head of GM not GM general electric wrote it. And this is an old book.

This is like 40 years old. And what he used to do is every year he would cut the 10, 10% of like middle men.

[01:27:54] Benja: Yeah. The lowest 10 performers.

[01:27:56] Patrick: Even if they had like record breaking profits and stuff like that. Yeah. You know, so to me, like, you know, we, we had like all of this, these internal conversations in the company, like the past couple weeks, and we were just like, what's holding us back from being as successful as possible.

And we, we just came to this, this conclusion that we needed to make some moves and we did. And the last two weeks have been insane, insane. Like our digital sales have been a thousand times better than they were before. Like our social media has climbed. Like I'm getting more feedback from people. I'm getting feedback from people that I wasn't getting feedback from before, you know?

So it's just like, sometimes. You gotta make a move. It's like, it's like, when you think about like basketball or you think about hockey or football, like you, you, you remove like that one week piece in the offensive line and you get one person like in there that will block, or you get like one tough guy on a team that has no tough guys or one rebounder on a team full of like decent shooters.

And all of a sudden the team is completely different, you know? So I don't care if I piss people off. Like I care about like at the end of the day, like, do we have as strong a product as possible? You know? Or like, even with my books, there's been like eight or nine developers that I've spoken to. And like when the PlayStation book and the PlayStation two books come out, I'm gonna probably get emails from developers that were like, I spoke to you for like two months.

How come I'm not in the book and I'm gonna go, you didn't give me great answers. Like, what was I, what was I supposed to do? Like, I don't, I don't wanna put. Crap in the book, you know, like, right, right. I, we, weren't telling a story, you know, like you weren't like, and this is not to like, you know, to boost your ego or anything like that.

But like you told like a legit story, you told a story of like a person at like the fact that you read Howard Scott Warsaw's book bef, and then you get the job at three and like, you have a great story. And the thing is you, weren't scared to tell it, you know, and that's took courage to tell it, you know, that's like, those are like the types of stories that like I'm looking for in my books, not just, I made a game and I'm cool and stuff.

It's just like, people don't want to hear that. People wanna see like the mind behind the game, you know? So it's just like, I would rather like piss people off and put out as top of product as possible than just everyone's really happy with me. But the book's not that good, you know? Yeah. So it's with comics, it's with, you know, it's, it's with all it's with everything it's with everything I do.

I just try and do the best that I can.

[01:30:17] Benja: Isn't that amazing how story. How, how good story never gets old? Never. I, I, I'm still fascinated by, by the fact that gosh, who was saying this he was like, yeah, you you're wa you're listening to a story or you're watching a classic movie or something. And you realize that like every sentence it's, it does its job.

And they're like, well, what do you mean? What do you mean it does its job. Oh, well, the job of any sentence is to get you to read the next sentence. Yep. Or the job of any hate. You mean, it's, it's a good flow. And it, I don't mean to just pull somebody along with with nonsense, but a good story is just a good story, you know, when you see it kind of thing, and it never gets old, which is so fascinating to me.

Yep. And like, I'm, I'm, I'm trying to live a story. Basically that's like, it never gets old. Someone's talking to me, Hey, you're doing this and this and this. Yeah, I'm doing this, I'm doing this. I'm trying to learn this new thing right here. Trying to make this new move with this company, et cetera, et cetera.

And I feel like you've got that same vibe too.

[01:31:27] Patrick: Yeah, man. Like every day is a challenge. I love the fact that like, I can put myself in a position where I can learn something new every day. You know, it's like the past couple weeks I've been doing a lot more video editing, something that I haven't done since like my NBC days.

And I'm like, oh my God, I love, I haven't played with premiere pro and like Taha 8, 8, 9 years. And now I'm like, oh my God, this is so I remember. So much fun. Yeah. You know, and then like all these like silly little promos that are, that I'm posting is reels on Instagram and stuff. I'm sitting in there, I'm messing with themes and, and things like that.

And premiere pro and templates and you know, all these different files and stuff. And I'm just like, this is rewarding, you know? So it's just like, if you really want to, you can, you can get a little bit better at everything every single day. And that's your story, you know? And it's like, and you're in control of that.

Like, what are you gonna learn today? What what's gonna be your story. Are you gonna be content with what you have? And there's so many people it's like, it's so funny when you're telling me about like how like, sentences, like in great story, just like resonate. I immediately think of like the warriors movie, you know?

Yeah. It's just like when you're, when you're listening to the head of, you know, when you're listening to Cyrus, he's like the tiny pieces of turf, you know, and everything means something, his hand gestures, all like that whole monologue like means something and he's super charismatic. And then you go to another character.

in that movie, like Swan, who rarely says anything. And then he looks at, you know, the girl in the subway and he goes, I don't like the way you live. And it's just like, damn, he said so much in just one sentence. He's looking at her and being like, I don't respect you, you know? But he didn't say that he didn't say the cliche.

He said, I don't like the way you live, you know? And it's just like, for me, it's just like, I want, that's the way I wanna try and speak. I wanna try and speak in a way where I don't have to speak for an hour to say what I need to say, you know? And yeah. Story is everything.

[01:33:17] Benja: Did you play the video game?

[01:33:18] Patrick: The warriors.

I love the video game. I love the video game for how pretty it was. I love that it like captured the essence of the movie, but like, I don't know if I would've gone like full beat style that they maybe, I would've like focused a little bit more on the story. Mm-hmm you know, like they made it like, almost like too.

I don't know. I felt like the game was like a little too easy. you know? Hmm. Yeah. I still loved it though.

[01:33:45] Benja: Yeah, that, that's one of the things I've actually been wrestling with. Well, I was wrestling with, with with video games, you know, just the whole, how much of a story, bring the person along kind of thing.

Do you want, and how much of a challenge put the person in it kind of thing. You know what I mean? Because there's, yeah, there's, there's driving a car and then there's being on a roller coaster and both of them are fun for different reasons, but one's a more passive experience and one's more of a hands on experience.

So do you want people in there? You know, like, Hey, you're having a great experience and they turn around, like, I'm changing the fucking oil, man. I don't want to do this. I just wanna drive a car. It's like, eh, that's part of the experience I'm giving you. You know? I, I don't know.

[01:34:32] Patrick: It's like I'll give you like a perfect example of that.

So like Pokemon red and blue, I can't tell you how many times. my character is all of them fainted. And I had to go back and replay a gym and stuff like that. And the last Pokemon game that I played on the switch, I don't think I got game over once throughout the entire game. I think I played 60 hours and did not like, I, I probably lost a Pokemon here and there.

Like they fainted and I had to take them to the Boge Pokemon center, but I don't think all six, I don't think I lost in one gym, you know? And I'm just like, is the story what's more important now? Because back in the day, the story was important, but the competitive nature of the battles was super important.

That was a huge part of like, yeah. That's, that's, that's definitely a change formula. Yeah. So now it's just like, do you wanna just take me on a story and is it more about the multiplayer and the online thing? Because I'm sure I've gotten my ass kicked online plenty of times. Right. But like against the computer, that just didn't happen.

So that like connection between, you know, the, the, the one player game and myself, like, wasn't it wasn't there anymore. Like maybe. Maybe they feel like that's something that's accomplished multiplayer, but if you're like, you know, if you're a thirties, if you're in your thirties and forties multiplayer, probably isn't your thing either.

You know, I like to play to get away from people. Like I remember playing street fighter on PS three the first time, like online. And it's like, here it comes a new challenger. I'm like what? And like, somebody like jumped into my game from online and I'm like, no, like I wanna play by myself, you know? So it's just like it's wild.

It's wild. How like, you know?

[01:36:03] Benja: Yeah. So speaking of challenges, what's your, what's your challenge right now? I mean, you've got Russell quest is doing its thing. Legacy comics is doing its thing still early. You said you were, you got 10 issues planned out. You've kind of got four already kind of in the, in the silo and mine's behind the games is still doing this thing.

So what's your current challenge right now that you're, you're

[01:36:27] Patrick: working through Trying to get as much exposure for the comic book brand. Mm-hmm so I've been lucky enough that like I've been mentored by some really cool people. And they've told me things like, don't worry about like digital sales, like if you're running a comic book company, if you're running a comic book company it's all about cons.

It's all about signings and cons get as many signings and cons, like, if you're doing this, like the first year you should be doing anywhere from like 20 to like 40 cons, you should even try and do more than that. You should aim for like 50 to 75, because that's where you're gonna meet people. Blah, blah, blah.

So then I remember talking, you know, to my mentor of one of my mentors, I'm just like, so if you're telling me, like not to worry about digital sales and to just focus on cons, I'm gonna focus on cons, but I'm gonna focus on digital sales. I'm gonna be like the first comic book company. That's like, yeah, we sell comics digitally.

You know, like we focus on that. Like, that's gonna be like, so. And everyone tells me like, oh, you know, don't worry about it for me. It's like, if I can sell comics without going to cons, if I can create like a social media presence that like draws people in where I don't have to tell, like my team, like, oh, we're going on the road again.

And we can sell books that way and still go on the road. Oh my God. That would be like, so that's what I'm trying to do. I'm trying to build like this online, this online presence where like, people are engaged by our material enough where that, that can like help fund the next round of books. Because like, I mean, I'll tell you, I was talking to my wife the other day and I'm like, in like two weeks, we're gonna be in business for a year and no checks have bounced, no checks have bounced.

We have not lost any money and we have money in the bank. I'm like, that's a success to me like for the first year. Yeah. Yeah. And that I, you know, but it's like next year at this time, I wanna be like, you know, what, same exact situation, but we've got the money for the next books. Like. We've got it already.

So like, for me, it's just like, after I pay for like a print run. So like we just, we just released our summer books like three weeks ago two, three weeks ago. So after that's over, then it's like, if I want books to come out in the fall, which we have ready to go, like, they're gonna be ready to go soon.

I've gotta sell those summer books and I've gotta sell the rest of the Kickstarter books and I've gotta sell ads. If I don't do those things, then maybe the full books are only digital or maybe they come out unless they're quantities and stuff. And I don't want that. So that's, my challenge always is like to continue to push the books that I have to pay for the next round of books.

So like, I wanna be in a situation where it's like, I have like the next quarter or the next month's books, like paid for already, you know, like ahead of time. So this way I could focus on two release cycles in advance and then this way I could start to build it. So that's probably like the biggest challenge.

Yeah. The PS one book I'm I'm editing right now. Like the final version of the manuscript. Yeah. Like I got like the pagenation all sent to me. I've seen it. I've seen what it looks like. So that's gonna be done in like the next two weeks. Then the PlayStation two book is done. They're probably gonna send that to me in the next like five or six months.

I wanna do another minds behind the games book book. I just don't know which one, you know, I'm thinking maybe like the minds behind the indie games. I love the game boy. I love the Dreamcast. I love the

[01:39:23] Benja: 600. I was about to say there's at least as far as I understand 2,600. Yes. Dreamcast.

There's probably some good stories from people there. But like there there's weird business like around you know, I remember the links. and there wasn't that much, but there was so, so much talk about like, Hey man, we're doing this new links thing. It's a crazy new system. And I I'm really curious, I don't know what's out there.

There may be nothing good out there. Maybe you do a compilation of the Vita, the links and whatever else.

[01:39:58] Patrick: I would even love to do like a virtual boy book, you know? Yeah. Like, Ugh. But it just like, it takes, I mean, I've told you this before it takes, it's so much. It's so time intensive, sending pictures out to as many people as possible and stuff and it just like, I don't wanna take anything away from legacy.

So it's just like, I definitely wanna see how the next three books do, but that's like that. And then the VO, I mean, I, I really think like when people see what I'm doing on wrestle quest, that that's gonna open up more doors in terms of, of VO. So I'm excited for that too. So yeah, that those that's like what's going on right now.

It's just like, just it's waiting and seeing how like all this stuff that I've done hits, you know, because then if it doesn't hit, then that's gonna like change. That's gonna change the course a little bit, you know, mm-hmm

[01:40:46] Benja: well, no, I think what you're doing, you're putting stuff out there. It's it it's landing wherever it's landing, it's doing its thing.

But stuff like that tends to, to leave a, to leave a market tends to start a what's the word I'm trying to look for. It tends to germinate certain things, right? Yeah. So a year from now, you can be like, Hey, you're the guy from Russell quest. You, I met this guy and he said, you did the VO, well, we're not doing VO over here, but he told me, you did comics.

We're looking to do, you know, a comic for our game or something. You know, it could just lead to random whatnot. So absolutely. I I'm actually, I'm actually curious to see, you know, where all this goes and I'll be, I'll be following this adventure. And at some point, at some point in the future, I don't know how far or, you know, what your plans are.

It would be kind of cool to see a, oh God, I'm doing the designer thing that I designers hate when PE when people come up and say, would it be cool if

[01:41:43] Patrick: I love, I love that. So do it, do it twice.

[01:41:47] Benja: No like a documentary of some type or a docudrama, you know, I was just watching. What's the name of it? It's the story about Google earth on on Netflix, fascinating story where these guys had this program and they met up with some guys from Google and suddenly these guys are in a race basically with Google.

To get the Google earth technology out. It's, it's pretty fascinating. And it's like, man, that's that old school computer, just get in there, do stuff kind of story. And it's a little doc, it's a little docudrama. So of all the stories you collected, I'm basically saying there's some sort of little drama in there that could be fleshed out or I don't know, but at some point, I mean, yeah, this is, this is me just wanting to see a lot of these stories reveal because I live some of it.

I followed it. I love it.

[01:42:42] Patrick: I, I was on a podcast maybe like six months ago and they're like, how come Netflix? Hasn't like picked you up and make like each chapter of your book, like, you know, an episode of, of a show, like why isn't there like a minds behind the games, you know, like TV series or whatever. And I'm just like, I would love for that to happen.

It's just a matter of getting on those people's radar, because I think to a lot of people, like a lot of people still don't know that I exist, you know? And that's hard, you know, especially considering the fact that like, you know, five books are out. It's like, but I mean, I have people out there that have bought every single thing that I've done.

And then I have people every day, like still my best selling book is still my first book, you know? And it's like, I feel like my, my first book is not even close to being my best book anymore, you know? So it's crazy. It's crazy. But yeah, man, I'm, I'm totally with that. Like I definitely think that like, there's definitely some opportunities there to do crazy stuff with all of that material that I have.


[01:43:39] Benja: Yes. Well, Patrick, it has been excellent, man. I don't know if you have anything else that you want to say or put out there, but I totally wanted to catch up with you on legacy comics. Boom. We got that wrestle quest. We got that. And you know, the whole wrestling, gaming, comic connection. We got all that.

Is there anything else you wanted to. .

[01:43:57] Patrick: Yeah, just a couple of other things like the minds behind sake of Genesis games just came out like three weeks ago. You can go to Patrick Hickey jr.com/books to pick that up. It's probably my strongest book. So far 43 games featured vector, man Sonic two, like lion king Aladdin, like there's so many heavy hitters in that book.

I'm super proud of that book. Then, you know, at legacy comics we have C Rita and GOFO that just came out. So we've got like this really gritty crime, like noir and C Rita, like this coming of age, family tale. And then we have this American manga in GOFO. So like we're doing really cool stuff. You can go to legacy comics, C O M I X to pick that up, wrestle quest guys, like I've worked on probably like a dozen games now in terms of like VO and editing and stuff like that.

And I'm super proud of. This game world championship boxing manager too, is the sequel to a 30 year old boxing game. On amiga it's super special to me too. Like I do the voices of like sugar Ray Robinson and like Rocky Marciano in that game. Super proud of that. Can't say enough about BPM boy from Tony Barnes.

I'm retro ninja. Mm-hmm, the VCs. Doesn't have many games right now and I, I can honestly, 100% wholeheartedly say that I feel like BPM boy is the strongest, like original IP on the guitar VCs. Like that game is like marble madness, marble madness meets super monkey bowl with like Tony Barnes, not only like an amazing video game developer, but he's a great musician as well.

So it's just like you put both of those things together. It's super special. So yeah, so voice the, the video game books and the comics that's me, you know, follow me on Instagram, Patrick. Ay, Jr. Be ready for a lot of posts. Sorry, not sorry. You know and that's, that's pretty much it.

[01:45:34] Benja: I love it, man. And, and while we're here, do you have any, do you have anything for me?

I, I usually don't ask this, but do you have anything

[01:45:40] Patrick: for me? Why is there not, why did, why was there never another rockstar table tennis? I've always wanted to ask you. I wanted to ask you the last time I was on your show, cuz I was just like, that game is so good and people still play it. Yeah. So it's just like, why, why, why, why was there never another one? What happened there?

You know what

[01:45:59] Benja: the way rockstar works, as I said, you know, the very authentic, it's a a community of people with certain ideas and they really invite you into who. And I don't wanna just say culture, but they really invite you into their way of doing things like, Hey, listen, we got an idea. We think it's authentic.

We're going to, we're gonna go out. Some of us are gonna go to the shooting range. We're gonna learn how to shoot. Some of us are gonna go driving. We're gonna learn how to drive. Some of us are gonna go just walking around, you know, these big urban cities, just to see what cities feel like we're gonna do all kinds of stuff.

And we're all gonna come back and share our ideas. And if it feels right, it feels right. If we're gonna do it, we're gonna do it. So when it came time for table tennis, it felt right at the time. And after it was over, it was like, that was fun. And then there are all these other ideas and it just never felt like the thing that we should revisit because revisiting, it would feel like an attempt to revisit it as opposed to being authentic with what we should be doing.

Makes sense. Absolutely. And you see, and you see how I'm saying, we there. You know, because it was a family kind of thing, you know? Sure. So yeah, even, even right after people were like, Hey, let's do a sequel. And, you know, there were even thoughts about, should we be even putting this on the Nintendo? We, you know, because yeah, it was, it was made with the controller in mind.

Now you're kind of changing that up with the control style. It's not as authentic. Do we, you know, we put our, you know, we put everything behind it, but, but yeah, at the time it was like there were other thoughts that came up like, should we do another Smuggler's run? You know? And that, yeah, that, that ended up turning into a DLC.

So it didn't go away, but it's like they really take every decision and sit long and hard and think about it and say, not that we don't want to do it, but what can we do that has the most. Cultural and personal and social impact and makes the most sense for us. And that's the way they guide their decisions.

They don't run off of, they don't run off spreadsheets and financial you know, forecast. It's very, very pure. So all I can say is unless for some reason, the, the, the, the, the zeitgeist feels like, Hey, it's time for another table tennis game. You never know. Yeah. I'm just

[01:48:36] Patrick: gonna say that I would love to play it on Nintendo switch.

Yeah. I would love to take it with me, cuz I love that game. Like I still play it to this day. So that's why I had to ask,

[01:48:48] Benja: wait a minute. There was a digital rerelease on Xbox.

[01:48:53] Patrick: I think it, yeah. Yes. Yeah. Yes. And people. Okay. But not, we're still playing it in droves and expo on Xbox one and stuff like that.


[01:49:00] Benja: yeah, it got, it got a digital rerelease later at some point, but not a but not a switch release, right? Yeah. Yeah. But if, if you, if you look back at the catalog, man, they, they continually think about what makes sense and what are we gonna do right now? What's what, what's not the thing right now.

What's going to be the thing, you know, 2, 3, 4, 5 years from now, what are we gonna, where are we gonna blaze trails? So yeah. There's no telling what's coming out. That studio such good ideas, such great people. I've got nothing bad to say about them. So yeah.

[01:49:40] Patrick: Yeah, man, that's awesome. Usually like three minutes blew by, by

[01:49:47] Benja: I love it. Fascinating place, man. And most of the people there, or who spent any time doing anything substantial, there are fascinating people. So,

[01:49:56] Patrick: oh, I bet. Oh, that would be one of those places where I just stood with my arms grossed. I kept my mouth shut the entire time, without it doubt. Yeah.

[01:50:04] Benja: I'm trying to think.

That was there, there were so many first at that company. And one of them was, you know, just walking up to, to like, or Dan Houser, Dan Hauser came by. Here's a good little story. So we're sitting around doing our thing. And lot of, a lot of companies, they have a corporate visit, right? Where the people come down, the execs or the important people to whatever project they come down, check everything out.

They take some notes, make some suggestions, either pat people on the back or shake their fist at 'em or whatever and provide feedback and leave. That's a normal thing for companies. one of the interesting things about rockstar is, and this isn't all the time. This isn't like one of their special practices.

They came down and Dan Houser actually just sat in the middle of our bullpen. So we're sitting there working and he like pulls up a chair, just sits down

and we're like Hey Dan, Mr. Houser how's it going? He's like, he's like, carry on, carry on, carry on. And he just sits.

All right. That was strange. So I never had a message like that. But I got kicked out and never been kicked out like that before. So

we'll see what happens. When we get Patrick back on here really quickly, then I'll just sign out. We were pretty much at the end of it. Anyway, um, telling rockstar stories.

Well. Uh, there There was some strange spookiness in the interwebs and the internet. So I don't know exactly what happened there, conversation in there. This was an awesome one with Patrick Hickey Jr. Right at the two hour mark uh, things started to get weird, not sure what end it was on, but we're still I'm doing so thank you all for coming through Mr benja's add experience live for BenjaCon 2022. all the platforms on apple, on Google podcast on Spotify. Somebody asked me if we were on pod bean. Yeah. We're on pod bean too. And, and Stitcher. So check us all out there. Thank you all for joining. I will talk to you all later and hopefully we'll get these

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